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	<title>Comments for aaron klinefelter</title>
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	<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net</link>
	<description>pondering life and its accumulated mysteries</description>
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		<title>Comment on Why I’m Green and other heresies by ak</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2012/03/15/why-im-green-and-other-heresies/comment-page-1/#comment-5302</link>
		<dc:creator>ak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Mar 2012 10:21:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1221#comment-5302</guid>
		<description>by the way, David, your words remind me (though, I&#039;m not entirely sure why) of this post on Facebook (not sure who can see it if you click through - http://www.facebook.com/groups/176519765766429/permalink/259003944184677/

here&#039;s a quote from it: &quot;the cross is an image of disavowel, the resurrection is an image of insurrection and separation of the former, it is anarchy in its purest form. the radical kernel within christianity worth &#039;saving&#039; is the one that continously overthrow&#039;s ideological regimes, including its own...&quot;

i think where it connects for me is what you said, &quot;caring about creation for Christians does not make one “Green” or a “liberal” but a Christian.&quot;  in other words, not letting other labels define, or speak for, us.  

it&#039;s too early to think much more about this, but it&#039;s been on my mind and i wanted to offer it up on the blog.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>by the way, David, your words remind me (though, I&#8217;m not entirely sure why) of this post on Facebook (not sure who can see it if you click through &#8211; <a href="http://www.facebook.com/groups/176519765766429/permalink/259003944184677/" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/groups/176519765766429/permalink/259003944184677/</a></p>
<p>here&#8217;s a quote from it: &#8220;the cross is an image of disavowel, the resurrection is an image of insurrection and separation of the former, it is anarchy in its purest form. the radical kernel within christianity worth &#8216;saving&#8217; is the one that continously overthrow&#8217;s ideological regimes, including its own&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>i think where it connects for me is what you said, &#8220;caring about creation for Christians does not make one “Green” or a “liberal” but a Christian.&#8221;  in other words, not letting other labels define, or speak for, us.  </p>
<p>it&#8217;s too early to think much more about this, but it&#8217;s been on my mind and i wanted to offer it up on the blog.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I’m Green and other heresies by ak</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2012/03/15/why-im-green-and-other-heresies/comment-page-1/#comment-5301</link>
		<dc:creator>ak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 18:12:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1221#comment-5301</guid>
		<description>Good push back David.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good push back David.  Thanks!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I’m Green and other heresies by David Johnston</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2012/03/15/why-im-green-and-other-heresies/comment-page-1/#comment-5295</link>
		<dc:creator>David Johnston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 12:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1221#comment-5295</guid>
		<description>I think your first two points are good.
In regard to (a), I think when push comes to shove everyone has to recognize what you&#039;re saying.  Two things I think that complicate it though.  First, there is the tendency in the US to see individual action as the &quot;best&quot; way to address it.  I see this more prevalent among those distrustful of government (Republicans, Libertarians).  Individual business owners and citizens should be free to make the choice to be stewards of creation, not coerced by governments.  I think this point of view naively overlooks or downplays the power corporations or bigger businesses have in these matters.  Second, and perhaps more pervasive, is the belief in the boundless capacity of human ingenuity.  In other words, that when push comes to shove and environmental degradation gets too bad, we are capability of coming up with some kind of solution to fix it.  The solution will not be &quot;live within the bounds present to us in nature&quot; but rather some kind of solution such that we do not have to change how we live.  For example, in agriculture, instead of caring for the soil, practicing crop rotation, prevent erosion, etc, the &quot;solution&quot; to poor soil stewardship is dousing the land in petrochemical fertilizers.  In this area, I think Wendell Berry is good at critiquing this mindset.

In regard to (b), I think there is certainly scriptural imperative for caring about creation.  I think Romans 8:18-23 is important on this front.  Revelation is too, especially 21:1-5 and 11:18, which has the sobering statement, &quot;The nations raged, but your [God&#039;s] wrath has come, ... for destroying those who destroy the earth.&quot;  What both Romans and Revelation (and John and Genesis) correct is the view that our destiny in God leaves creation behind.  Romans 8 gives us the resources for &quot;groaning with creation,&quot; recognizing all is not as God intended and our longing for consummation.  As Revelation 21 clearly says, God will make is home among human beings on an earth made new.  I think pinning or commitment to creation on scripture is a surer foundation that adopting it as a response to a problem, such as global warming.  I think Ellen Davis&#039; work is helpful here, such as her book &lt;i&gt;Scripture,Culture, and Agriculture: an Agrarian Reading of the Old Testament&lt;/i&gt; as well as two of her chapters in &lt;i&gt;Getting Involved with God&lt;/i&gt;, especially the introduction of the book.  She argues that the New Testament assumes the Old and is often &quot;silent&quot; on some issues, such as creation, because the Old Testament already gives us the resources to think through it.  I think that&#039;s key, because some Christians will say &quot;Well Jesus never talked about caring about creation.&quot;  I do think we need to look to creation to understand how best to live within it, so at some point, the issues of global climate change need some thought, as fraught with misinformation as that subject is in this country (and only this country).

Now I&#039;m not sure I would, in turn, adopt the label &quot;green.&quot;  Rather, I am committed to creation because I am Christian and scripture is authoritative for Christians.  Thinking of it as being &quot;Green&quot; instead of &quot;Christian&quot; makes it seem optional.  It also taints it with the certain American political associations, I think (Al Gore, &quot;hippies,&quot; etc).  Again, I think rhetorical strategy is key to make this issue make sense for Christians. So while identifying as &quot;Green&quot; can gain some allies, it can also alienate others. 

Which comes to point (c).  I am not sure how part c helps your argument. For as self concious as your rhetorical strategy is to avoid pinning your commitment creation care on global warming, I think alligning it with &quot;challenging the status quo&quot; puts you right back into the same position. Someone who recoils at global warming would recoil at that as well. Instead, I think the more potent rhetorical deployment of status quo would be to say that what creation care means is a truer kind of &quot;status quo&quot; that is aligning our way of living in, from, and with creation to the bounds of its givenness. In other words, creation should teach us our limits as creatures. Our destruction comes from rejecting that &quot;status quo&quot; or trying to define it ourselves.

To summarize, Christians care about creation because God does (as Aaron said) as revealed in scripture.  Thus, caring about creation for Christians does not make one &quot;Green&quot; or a &quot;liberal&quot; but a Christian.  It is not optional.  God did not create us to be limitless beings; God alone is infinite.  We need to relearn our &quot;creatureliness&quot; to act with more humility and charity toward the rest of creation as well as learn to live within limits God has set in creation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your first two points are good.<br />
In regard to (a), I think when push comes to shove everyone has to recognize what you&#8217;re saying.  Two things I think that complicate it though.  First, there is the tendency in the US to see individual action as the &#8220;best&#8221; way to address it.  I see this more prevalent among those distrustful of government (Republicans, Libertarians).  Individual business owners and citizens should be free to make the choice to be stewards of creation, not coerced by governments.  I think this point of view naively overlooks or downplays the power corporations or bigger businesses have in these matters.  Second, and perhaps more pervasive, is the belief in the boundless capacity of human ingenuity.  In other words, that when push comes to shove and environmental degradation gets too bad, we are capability of coming up with some kind of solution to fix it.  The solution will not be &#8220;live within the bounds present to us in nature&#8221; but rather some kind of solution such that we do not have to change how we live.  For example, in agriculture, instead of caring for the soil, practicing crop rotation, prevent erosion, etc, the &#8220;solution&#8221; to poor soil stewardship is dousing the land in petrochemical fertilizers.  In this area, I think Wendell Berry is good at critiquing this mindset.</p>
<p>In regard to (b), I think there is certainly scriptural imperative for caring about creation.  I think Romans 8:18-23 is important on this front.  Revelation is too, especially 21:1-5 and 11:18, which has the sobering statement, &#8220;The nations raged, but your [God's] wrath has come, &#8230; for destroying those who destroy the earth.&#8221;  What both Romans and Revelation (and John and Genesis) correct is the view that our destiny in God leaves creation behind.  Romans 8 gives us the resources for &#8220;groaning with creation,&#8221; recognizing all is not as God intended and our longing for consummation.  As Revelation 21 clearly says, God will make is home among human beings on an earth made new.  I think pinning or commitment to creation on scripture is a surer foundation that adopting it as a response to a problem, such as global warming.  I think Ellen Davis&#8217; work is helpful here, such as her book <i>Scripture,Culture, and Agriculture: an Agrarian Reading of the Old Testament</i> as well as two of her chapters in <i>Getting Involved with God</i>, especially the introduction of the book.  She argues that the New Testament assumes the Old and is often &#8220;silent&#8221; on some issues, such as creation, because the Old Testament already gives us the resources to think through it.  I think that&#8217;s key, because some Christians will say &#8220;Well Jesus never talked about caring about creation.&#8221;  I do think we need to look to creation to understand how best to live within it, so at some point, the issues of global climate change need some thought, as fraught with misinformation as that subject is in this country (and only this country).</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m not sure I would, in turn, adopt the label &#8220;green.&#8221;  Rather, I am committed to creation because I am Christian and scripture is authoritative for Christians.  Thinking of it as being &#8220;Green&#8221; instead of &#8220;Christian&#8221; makes it seem optional.  It also taints it with the certain American political associations, I think (Al Gore, &#8220;hippies,&#8221; etc).  Again, I think rhetorical strategy is key to make this issue make sense for Christians. So while identifying as &#8220;Green&#8221; can gain some allies, it can also alienate others. </p>
<p>Which comes to point (c).  I am not sure how part c helps your argument. For as self concious as your rhetorical strategy is to avoid pinning your commitment creation care on global warming, I think alligning it with &#8220;challenging the status quo&#8221; puts you right back into the same position. Someone who recoils at global warming would recoil at that as well. Instead, I think the more potent rhetorical deployment of status quo would be to say that what creation care means is a truer kind of &#8220;status quo&#8221; that is aligning our way of living in, from, and with creation to the bounds of its givenness. In other words, creation should teach us our limits as creatures. Our destruction comes from rejecting that &#8220;status quo&#8221; or trying to define it ourselves.</p>
<p>To summarize, Christians care about creation because God does (as Aaron said) as revealed in scripture.  Thus, caring about creation for Christians does not make one &#8220;Green&#8221; or a &#8220;liberal&#8221; but a Christian.  It is not optional.  God did not create us to be limitless beings; God alone is infinite.  We need to relearn our &#8220;creatureliness&#8221; to act with more humility and charity toward the rest of creation as well as learn to live within limits God has set in creation.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why I’m Green and other heresies by Alice Connor</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2012/03/15/why-im-green-and-other-heresies/comment-page-1/#comment-5294</link>
		<dc:creator>Alice Connor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 00:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1221#comment-5294</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve said something similar, though less eloquently, to some friends. Interestingly, those on the liberal side of things agree while those on the conservative side tend to take issue. Even the phrase &quot;creation care&quot; rather than &quot;environmentalism,&quot; which I chose intentionally, caused upset. What do you suppose that&#039;s about?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve said something similar, though less eloquently, to some friends. Interestingly, those on the liberal side of things agree while those on the conservative side tend to take issue. Even the phrase &#8220;creation care&#8221; rather than &#8220;environmentalism,&#8221; which I chose intentionally, caused upset. What do you suppose that&#8217;s about?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Insurrection :: Initial Reflections by On Religion? Over Religion?</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2011/12/11/insurrection/comment-page-1/#comment-5289</link>
		<dc:creator>On Religion? Over Religion?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:59:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1175#comment-5289</guid>
		<description>[...] To Believe is Human To Doubt, Divine, in the mail.  I wrote some initial observations over here.  I quickly realized I need to get up to speed on some Bonhoeffer, so I read a basic overview of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] To Believe is Human To Doubt, Divine, in the mail.  I wrote some initial observations over here.  I quickly realized I need to get up to speed on some Bonhoeffer, so I read a basic overview of [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Via Crucis :: Immersion 2008 Music by non-linear, emergent, participatory, ambient music</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2012/01/23/via-crucis-immersion-2008-music/comment-page-1/#comment-5285</link>
		<dc:creator>non-linear, emergent, participatory, ambient music</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 19:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1181#comment-5285</guid>
		<description>[...] who created a fantastic musical happening (I&#8217;ll repost the mp3s that we recorded soon.  I finally posted here them in 2012!).  In 2010, I&#8217;d love to push the envelope a bit further and create music together as a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] who created a fantastic musical happening (I&#8217;ll repost the mp3s that we recorded soon.  I finally posted here them in 2012!).  In 2010, I&#8217;d love to push the envelope a bit further and create music together as a [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Top Ten Parenting Books by Katie Rhodes</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2011/02/17/top-ten-parenting-books/comment-page-1/#comment-5262</link>
		<dc:creator>Katie Rhodes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1162#comment-5262</guid>
		<description>Thanks for posting these suggestions!  I&#039;ve been looking for new books on parenting my four-month old. I just wish I&#039;d heard of the No-Cry Sleep Solution book a few months ago.  At least it can benefit any future kids.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting these suggestions!  I&#8217;ve been looking for new books on parenting my four-month old. I just wish I&#8217;d heard of the No-Cry Sleep Solution book a few months ago.  At least it can benefit any future kids.  <img src='http://aaronklinefelter.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Top Ten Parenting Books by Tweets that mention Top Ten Parenting Books -- Topsy.com</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2011/02/17/top-ten-parenting-books/comment-page-1/#comment-5261</link>
		<dc:creator>Tweets that mention Top Ten Parenting Books -- Topsy.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1162#comment-5261</guid>
		<description>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Aaron Klinefelter, Aaron Klinefelter. Aaron Klinefelter said: Top Ten Parenting Books http://t.co/hEbUFgV What are yours? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Aaron Klinefelter, Aaron Klinefelter. Aaron Klinefelter said: Top Ten Parenting Books <a href="http://t.co/hEbUFgV" rel="nofollow">http://t.co/hEbUFgV</a> What are yours? [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on My Social Network by dan</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2010/12/01/my-social-network/comment-page-1/#comment-4722</link>
		<dc:creator>dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/2010/12/01/my-social-network/#comment-4722</guid>
		<description>since you inspired me to take the month of october off from SM, i thought i&#039;d voice my agreement on all 3 points…even if i&#039;m part of the polemical &quot;problem.&quot;  ;)

one thing that helped me a great deal in the last few weeks has been the use of a Mac application called SelfControl. here&#039;s a link:
https://github.com/slambert/selfcontrol/wiki
it stops the flow of email and web sites of your choosing for a set amount of time that you decide. there is no app for mobile devices aside from the off button :)

i have found this little app to be very helpful. i set it for 1 hour at a time, and it stops me from checking facebook and twitter, stops email from coming in, and i can just focus on what i need to do. when the hour is up, i give myself 5-10 minutes, and then it&#039;s back to work. for a self-employed person like me it&#039;s really useful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>since you inspired me to take the month of october off from SM, i thought i&#8217;d voice my agreement on all 3 points…even if i&#8217;m part of the polemical &#8220;problem.&#8221;  <img src='http://aaronklinefelter.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>one thing that helped me a great deal in the last few weeks has been the use of a Mac application called SelfControl. here&#8217;s a link:<br />
<a href="https://github.com/slambert/selfcontrol/wiki" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/slambert/selfcontrol/wiki</a><br />
it stops the flow of email and web sites of your choosing for a set amount of time that you decide. there is no app for mobile devices aside from the off button <img src='http://aaronklinefelter.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>i have found this little app to be very helpful. i set it for 1 hour at a time, and it stops me from checking facebook and twitter, stops email from coming in, and i can just focus on what i need to do. when the hour is up, i give myself 5-10 minutes, and then it&#8217;s back to work. for a self-employed person like me it&#8217;s really useful.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Campus Ministry Impact by Aaron</title>
		<link>http://aaronklinefelter.net/2010/09/13/campus-ministry-impact/comment-page-1/#comment-4190</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Sep 2010 21:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://aaronklinefelter.net/?p=1094#comment-4190</guid>
		<description>A friend pointed this out to me today... A good follow up to my post:

More students in college than in high school?
203,614 students were enrolled in public school grades 9 through 12 at the end of the 2009-10 school year. That&#039;s from the SAAR Enrollment Report on the Department of Education website. - http://prichblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-students-in-college-than-in-high.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A friend pointed this out to me today&#8230; A good follow up to my post:</p>
<p>More students in college than in high school?<br />
203,614 students were enrolled in public school grades 9 through 12 at the end of the 2009-10 school year. That&#8217;s from the SAAR Enrollment Report on the Department of Education website. &#8211; <a href="http://prichblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-students-in-college-than-in-high.html" rel="nofollow">http://prichblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/more-students-in-college-than-in-high.html</a></p>
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